Next-Wave Ezine > church & culture

Interview with Jim Palmer, author of Wide Open Spaces
By Bill Dahl

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[Ed Note: In this article, Bill Dahl, who runs The Porpoise Diving Life.com interviews Jim Palmer on the eve of the publication of his latest book, Wide Open Spaces, Beyond Paint-By-Number Christianity]

Jim ... Whaddya been doin' lately?

Well, I took up cycling, and that’s been a great experience. There’s a group of guys in the neighborhood I normally ride with. I’d like to do a Century in the spring. I’ve had a little writing break since finishing Wide Open Spaces, but here soon I need to jump into writing the next book. Stuff has been stewing inside, and it’s time to start laying it down “on paper.” My daughter Jessica turned eight, and one of the greatest joys is being her dad and friend. I love her so much. We enjoy doing so many things together, but I sure hope

they don’t come out with a High School Musical III; two was enough! It seems like lately Pam and I have gotten back to having time for and simply enjoying conversation with each other. Jessie is old enough now to do things on her own, and Pam and I will often pick a couch to lay on, and we will just talk about life, God, and what is going on in our lives. Our dog Jack is usually on top of one of us.

We have been walking alongside friends who have been suffering, and we grieved the loss of a close friend to Pick’s disease. One day out of the blue I received a phone call from Ernie Johnson, Jr., TBS sportscaster, who read Divine Nobodies, which was recommended to him by Cleveland Indian’s pitcher, Paul Byrd. Ernie Johnson, Jr. is a Cancer survivor, and yet just a few weeks later 19-year-old Miles Levin who I met and interacted with through email after hearing about him through a CNN interview, died of a rare form of Cancer. This summer I read Lance Armstrong’s two memoir books, which tell his story of overcoming Cancer. Yet, just this past week I biked with a new friend who lost his wife to Cancer last year. All of that to say, I’ve been wrestling through this whole issue of death, and it has taken me headlong into the issue of fear altogether. If “perfect love casts out ALL fear,” that would include the fear of death, which leads me to believe there is nothing to fear in death if we can grasp what it is and isn’t. This whole process of discovery seems to be leading to greater and greater freedom.

Your phrase “Beyond Paint-By-Number Christianity” is the subtitle to your book Wide Open Spaces. This phrase infers something. Will you help define the elements of this phrase for us?

It seems to me that God, faith, and spirituality are more like art than science. Art tends to be subjective, imaginative, spiritual, transcendent, and intuitive. Art in its many forms stirs, awakens, lifts, heals, moves, connects, and inspires people. Science is objective, analytical, material, quantifiable, and formulaic. The word ‘science’ is a Latin word meaning “knowledge.” Science employs a methodology for investigating material phenomena, and gathers observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.

A paint-by-number set is essentially science masquerading as art. Inside the packaging it appears like art

with paints and brush. But then you discover there’s not much creativity or imagination to the process, you just do the math and stay in the lines. Likewise, Christianity was meant to be centered in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, which stirs, awakens, lifts, heals, moves, inspires and connects humankind into a dynamic and spiritual relationship with God. All the external hoopla seems promising but then it essentially ends up being the same old checklist of do’s and don’ts, mechanical programs, and keeping the church machine running. Jesus’ teachings of love and living in the present reality of God’s kingdom becomes replaced by more rational and objective ends like correct doctrine, being good, and doing church.

So, going “beyond paint-by-number Christianity” is a willingness to wake up each morning as a beginner. The soul loves risk, and through the door of risk we awaken and grow spiritually. God draws us into the wide open spaces beyond our pre-determined notions and formulas about him. The phrase “do not be afraid” appears 366 times in the Bible. Hold on to that one as you go or you won’t get very far.

One caveat; when I say “science” I probably need to clarify it as “old school science,” because more recently in fields such as quantum physics, science is acknowledging an “invisible”, or “non-material” force as the essential foundation of the universe in terms of energy and the interdependent relationships of all living things.

In the book, you ask: “Whereas religion sometimes brings out the worst in people, could the vision of a bigger God cause us to place higher value on expanding our circles of care and working toward a more peaceful world?" ( p. 2). On an individual level, what does this look like (give some examples) for the divine nobody type person

I make myself available to cultivate friendships with folks in our neighborhood. In the process, I have become close friends with a couple of people; one is Hindu, and the other Buddhist. We are involved in one another’s lives. On a spiritual level, we share many similarities including the awareness that this world is not the source of true peace and contentment, and a desire to connect with and be in tune with the Ultimate Source of All. We each know there is a Transcendent and Ultimate Reality, and our desire is to live in openness to that reality. We share our spiritual lives with one another, which includes my sharing how Christ has been central in my journey.

We also share in common other desires and concerns. We desire the wellbeing of our children, and we share a compassion for the suffering of our world. When opportunities come along to express our compassion in bringing aid to a person in need or confronting systemic structures of injustice, we don’t think twice about acting together. My Christianity, and their Hinduism and Buddhism does not preclude our working together peacefully for a higher purpose that unites us, a purpose which I refer to as Love. Most practically, we express care and compassion together for people in need around us in our neighborhood and community.

You suggest in your book that perhaps "God wants love to be our belief system."(p.7). What does that mean?

John wrote, “God is love.” This means much more than God chooses at times to do loving things. God’s love is not a spigot that he turns off and on. It’s always on because God IS love; love is the personal or intimate essence of God’s being or the fundamental way we experience God. In every moment, every act, every motivation, and every thought, God is offering himself as Perfect Love. If knowing God as Perfect Love was the foundation or cornerstone of our spiritual or religious beliefs, our understandings would be radically altered, and we would be set free.

A lot changed for me once I began interpreting spiritual things through God’s Love. I went to seminary and had classes on “hermeneutics,” which is about identifying a methodology for interpreting spiritual writings like the Bible. Now I see that “Love” is the best “hermeneutic.” In other words, see all things as an expression of God as Love. As Love, God desires every person to experience all that he wants to freely give. When we “fall short” (sin) of experiencing this, God is grieved. God doesn’t look at humankind through eyes of disgust, but eyes of Love. God “hates sin,” because he seeks our best. God passionately resists anything less than this because he Love us. What is God’s best? It is himself! Knowing God and being one with God, as Jesus prayed we would experience, is the key to our fulfillment and freedom. This is what God desires for all humankind.

For me, Jesus Christ has been central for my working through this because I have learned from Christ there is no separation between myself and God. I realize there are ways I “fall short” of embracing and experiencing God’s best for me, and I am prone to make this fact a barrier between myself and God. The cross tells me all is forgiven, and the empty tomb tells me I am free to live in the present reality of God’s kingdom.

You state, "We want to figure God out in our head, while God wants us to feel him in our heart." (p. 20. ). – How is this connected to our feet?

If the source of our action in the world is religious shame, guilt, fad, political correctness, or earning brownie points with God, it won’t be sustained and worse yet, likely to do harm. There is a difference between pain and suffering. Pain is the natural response to the hurts and hardships of our world. Suffering is the additional amount of emotional or psychological anguish one feels based on their false inner networks. For example, let’s say you unexpectedly lose your job. It is certainly normal to feel a certain amount of hardship about this. However, an exponential amount of suffering will be added if your false inner network includes the lie of that your identity is based on your professional work, position, or accomplishments. When I traveled with the International Justice Mission, I was rudely awakened not only to the physical repercussions for the victims of forced child prostitution but the emotional, psychological, and spiritual damage. Likewise, the anguish of people in poverty is much deeper than the physical lack of food.

The capacity to embrace the whole person in alleviating the sufferings of our world easily outstrips the inner resources of people who only have a God on paper or in their head. However, as you depend upon the Source of love, peace, contentment, wholeness, and freedom within you, then you have a reservoir of spiritual resources to offer others.

In the book you say, "Virtually every significant thing God has ever done to birth his kingdom has been contrary to human logic and has come through the least likely people." (p.188). Can you provide a few examples from the last year of some things you are observing that illustrate the statement you make?

Here’s a short list of some examples I’ve been personally experiencing or observing:
1.    Some of the most vibrant, solid, mature and missional Christ followers are not products of organized church.
2.    Expressing and sustaining unconditional love and acceptance with others is not futile but transformative and never returns void.
3.    The kingdom of God is multiplying through the lives of ordinary people who simply open their lives to others along the everyday paths of life.
4.    God has rigged our daily experience with people and experiences to teach and grow us; we just have to decide to be students.

For me, one of the most powerful, enduring statements you wrote in the book were two words, “be love.” What do you say to the persons who asks, “How do I do that?”

In every moment, Jesus was fully conscious and totally awake to his relationship with the Ultimate Source or God, which he called his “Father,” a relationship of communion and love. To become rooted in and transformed by this Divine Love, to be this Love, as Christ is, is the heart of a proper Christology.

I capitalize the word ‘Love,’ because I view it as Ultimate Reality or God. Love is not some flighty, sentimental, self-focused human emotion. Love is the Creator and Source of all that is real. Humans were made in the image of Love, and so Love is the ground of our being, and our natural inheritance. When someone is awakened to Love, they are awakened to the most transformative reality there is. Its power heals, sets people free, makes whole, and puts one at deep peace and joy. Love is a spiritual reality within ourselves we can turn to in any moment. One way I experience it is a deep knowing that in every moment I am held in unconditional acceptance. When I allow myself to dwell there, all sense of separation from God is extinguished and I experience oneness with God. Free at last! Jesus prayed we would share in the communion of Love he experienced with the Father.

I enjoy hiking, and often trails are marked by various color streaks on trees – red, blue, green, whatever. Likewise, the trail to God, in God, with God is marked by Love. As I convert the inner experience of Love into a life of being Love, I am one of those trees showing people the path to God, Ultimate Reality, and the only power on earth capable of transforming our inner being.

I grew up in an abusive home and have a list of life failures a mile long. If there had been a “most likely to lead a meaningless life” award in high school, I would have easily won it. OCD, Tourette’s, depression, self-hatred (to name a few) have been things I have had to contend with over the course of my life. Love is no respecter of persons. Whatever resistance to Love we have nurtured inside it is no match for the power of Love. Love does not need any particular set of circumstances in order to exist because it is an internal spiritual reality. Love is available in abundance to every person in every moment inside of them; this is our natural inheritance as people created in the image of God. All that’s left is to remove the blocks that hinder our awareness of Love’s presence. As mentioned previously, Christ has helped remove my blocks. We are to help each other. The best way to do this is to simply Love each other.

I adore your site, Turn Love Inside Out. Who came up with this idea and where is this going? Describe a few of the blessings you’ve enjoyed since the launch of this site.

As I was writing Wide Open Spaces I began noticing how every chapter seemed to come back up to Love in one way or another. There’s been a few times in my life when Truth unveiled itself in such a clear and powerful way that it radically altered or awakened me deep inside. It was one of those experiences, and the Truth that presented itself to me is Love. Honestly, one reason my co-partner Anne and I started Turn Love Inside Out, is because we realized if we can know, experience, and be changed by Love, any human being can! We are both nobodies, and we’ve had plenty of life circumstances that have created resistance to Love inside us.

There are an infinite number of ways a person is drawn to the Truth. Experiencing God’s unconditional acceptance was huge for me. Turn Love Inside Out is not about pushing some new formula for changing the world or the latest bandwagon everyone should jump on in order to be spiritually hip. A few of us compared notes and discovered that Love has been instrumental in awakening us to what God makes available in every moment. The power of Love as I’ve experienced and witnessed its impact in other’s lives, is that it meets every person where they are, and has a way of dislodging a person from whatever is holding them back or hindering them.

I am a nobody sharing my own life journey and what I’m discovering and experiencing. I hope anything I say will encourage others to desire Truth and be open to Love. Any Truth I’ve discovered or been awakened to is not original to me, and I take no credit for it. Truth has been presenting itself since the beginning of humankind; no Truth is really “new” Truth. If it’s Truth today, it has always been so. For me, the more I have grown in Love – understanding Love as God’s identity, accepting Love as my identity created in God’s image, discovering the source of Love within myself where Love’s presence dwells, abiding in Love, and allowing myself to be and give Love without condition – the more motivated I’ve been to open myself to God.

Religion too often hinders a person’s journey with God because it focuses so much on separation from God and one another. More and more people feel like organized religion of any kind, including “Christianity,” boils down to all the same stuff – fear, shame, judgment, and condemnation. This does no bring liberation. Turn Love Inside Out is essentially allowing people to start or redirect or deepen their spiritual path on the foundation of God as Love.

We’re approaching Thanksgiving and Christmas. How do these two seasons impact you at this stage of your life?

Both Thanksgiving and Christmas intensify my awareness of what’s beautiful about the human journey. For me, Thanksgiving is celebration of abundance. A table covered with food is a symbol reminding me of the spiritual abundance residing within me. Just as the earth richly supplies her gifts of human sustenance, so the Spirit of God within me supplies an abundant spiritual harvest of love, peace, and contentment. In gratitude for my abundance, I am compelled to offer what I have to those suffering from lack, whether it’s a physical lack of human sustenance, or a perceived lack of spiritual resources. Following this celebration of abundance, Christmas comes and calls me once again to turn away from my false identity in the “first adam,” and rediscover the truth of who I am in the “new adam.” Day by day I am birthing new aspects of the Christ life, and growing up into my spiritual identity.

The Thanksgiving and Christmas season also seem to rekindle a renewed appreciation and acceptance of the life I live. My wife Pam and daughter Jessica, my neighbors and close friends, the people I see and the places I go along the everyday paths of life, the work God has given me to do – these all grow in significance as my “calling” to live as Christ.

Who are three people you would like to hang out with for a day, during the next year?

Some of those “divine nobodies” from the first book, I have not had the opportunity to see face-to-face in a while. I’d like to spend a day with “Saint Kit” up in Connecticut. I’ve also made some significant friends through my Internet involvements. Some of them I have never met face-to-face, or perhaps have only had opportunity to hang out with them in person once or twice. It would be great to hang out for a day with Anne in Kalamazoo, we have so much to talk about. I’ve got MySpace friends like Keren, Jason and Donna, and Facebook friends like Robin, Mike and…I guess it’s pointless mentioning names; there are so many. I would also relish a day with some of the rescued victims of child prostitution and child slave labor I met in South Asia with the IJM. I learned so much form them.

Give us a list of 5 things you have learned about life, God, people or Jim this past year.

Let me give you a list of 5 things I’ve been learning about myself over the past year or so:
1.    My true identity in God is only available in the Now; the real ‘I’ is not the sum-total of my past, or hoping to become something better in the future. In every moment, I am invited and capable of being and resting in who I truly am.
2.    Following my deepest feelings is a vital spiritual practice. Obviously, I’m not talking about sentimental, ego-driven, fleshly and flighty emotions such as hatred, anger, lust, greed, pride, and selfishness. Deeper still we experience interior feelings, which is the life of God flowing within us. I’ve made it a practice to listen and follow those feelings.
3.    My contentment is not attached to outcomes. If I never write another book, if my Amazon ranking free-falls to the bottom, if I run out of things to say on my blog, if I’m not capable of having another intelligent thought about God, if I never get invited to speak anywhere again, if I never ride a Century, none of these things have any impact on my living in peace and contentment, or my worth and value as a person.
4.    I have no desire to argue about God.
5.    I am about out of all ammunition for judging anyone.

Finally, do you honestly believe that during 2008, you are going to have the opportunity to hang out and enjoy a cigar and a cold drink with Bill Dahl somewhere?

Hey, I’ll bring a box of Macanudos! Dude, it would be awesome to kick back with some good java and cigar, and watch it snow. We don’t seem to get the white stuff down here too much in Nashvegas. Maybe I could find a few mountains to bike :P

Jim Palmer offers guidance as a pastor, speaker, writer, blogger, and conversationalist to people seeking to know God in deeper and more expansive ways. he is the founder of the Pilgrimage Project, an initiative encouraging the freedom to imagine, dialogue, live, and express new possibilities for being an authentic Christian. Jim lives in Nashville with his wife, Pam, and daughter, Jessica, and can be contacted at www.divinenobodies.com.

Bill Dahl, Porpoise Diving...

Bill Dahl is Porpoise-propelled to pursue the God of More. He is a freelance writer and social justice advocate. For the past fifteen years, Bill and his wife have been called to work with the poor, the oppressed and the marginalized as volunteer community youth workers. Bill is published in numerous professional publications, magazines, websites, newspapers and newsletters. He is the author of five manuscripts, presently under consideration for publication. Bill and his family make their home in central Oregon. Bill can be contacted at wsdahl@bendbroadband.com or via his website at www.billdahl.net

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